A difference of opinion; Gorillaz and other projects
Welcome back good people, it really felt like a Monday today didn’t it? Bad night of sleep, burned my finger, sore back from digging the pond (I think) and the strange sense that you left something behind on a shelf called ‘the weekend’. Ah well…too late to look back now let’s tackle the week head on. I know there’s an 80% chance you’ll not be reading this on a Monday but trust me that the sentiment was there as I write this.
Speaking of sentiment I saw some comments on our facebook page that made me wonder if I’ve been treating the recruitment of Mick Jones and Paul Simonon to Damon Albarn’s Gorillaz with the legislation of sentiment?? Was I simply happy that not only had these two pillars of The Clash played on a track on the new Plastic Beach album but then rumour was cemented into fact by the two Clash boys becoming part of Gorillaz at least in the live setting for the Spring and the Summer? Was I immersed in this unlikeliest of reunions to such an extent that I didn’t see it as opportunistic and even insulting to the legacy of The Clash? Did I let my judgment get clouded by events and ignore the facts? As you’ll see below I’ll reproduce some of the discussion we’ve been having on the FB page – and while not wanting to ratchet this up to a full on debate I do admire the conviction and reasoning of ‘Johnny Heartbreaker’. I did contact Johnny and he’s a good man and I asked if he’d object to his comments being part of this post and he was fine with that.
Now as to a lot of his thoughts, he’s probably trying to convince the wrong person. I’ve been a fan of Blur since first seeing them in 1993 and remained a great admirer of them throughout their time together, purchasing all their albums, meeting them a few times and feeling that along with Pulp and Supergrass they were amongst the best music England had to offer throughout the 1990′s. While I was raised on The Clash a few bands have held my interest long enough to watch their entire careers since and Blur would fall into that category. I’ve since enjoyed (most) of Graham Coxon’s solo work, adored The Good The Bad and The Queen (one of the best albums of the last decade for me) and watched Gorillaz evolve into a fascinating soup of musical influences wound around the songwriting and arrangement of Albarn. If you take the three Gorillaz albums as a composite work they are as fresh as anything else released in the last decade. Of course these are just my opinions after all, but yeah I was thrilled that Damon would work with Paul and Mick, and to me it’s rather brilliant to see them performing live together again with Damon. As I said I’m the wrong person to ask, Johnny sees the heart and soul of The Clash as Joe Strummer – end of story. His point of view is laid out beneath, although its fair to say he sees Mick’s work in the intervening decades as lackluster. He also feels that Strummer continued to maintain all of the integrity and quality post Clash – which I don’t agree with. While I fiercely enjoyed his later work nothing came close to the chemistry of The Clash (for me). Strummer was without a doubt one of a kind but did he ever burn as brightly as he did with The Clash?
The Clash were unlike any other band, it was specifically the balance between those four that led to a concentrated output of music, passion, ideas that can never be matched. I think Jones had to have Strummer to put the fabric on his song structure, I think Strummer needed the compositional skills of Jones to make songs that are as timeless as granite. I think both needed the personalities and vastly different skills of
Paul and Mick with Gorillaz, a joke or a joy to see?
Topper and Paul to put the roof on the building that the Clash created. I’ve never looked for any member of The Clash to match what they did with The Clash, nor do I think any of them have succeeded for more than a fleeting moment. I also think the combined output of Strummer and Jones (which strangely always seemed to ebb while the other flowed) since the split has brought us music that was vital to the last 30 years. While not matching the pinnacle of The Clash it was still pretty bloody good – and that includes contributions this decade with Carbon Silicon, The Good The Bad and The Queen and now Gorillaz. If the value of The Clash ended with a brick wall in 1983 they’d still have had a great impact but I do think it runs deeper than that and not just from Joe’s work.
There’s no right or wrong in this discussion – just thoughts and ideas, but I wondered if I was in the minority feeling very rewarded by the post Clash career of Jones and Simonon and not just Joe? As for Topper – his comments below are sound as a pound.
Below are the comments from the FB page, apologies if this is old to some of you – and yes I welcome your opinions, of all stripes.
(posted in response to old live footage of The Clash around 1980)
Sad to see Mick and Paul go from this – to prancing around a stage with the Gorillaz in ridiculous sailor outfits! Still, it was as equally sad to see them go from this to BAD and Havana 3am as well.
I think it’s not unfair then to say that they always needed Joe more than he ever needed them. Joe wasn’t just the main man in the Clash, but also in the 101′ers and the Mescaleros. And of course he set up Strummerville, keeping true to his life-long values of giving back to the people i.e. you and me, who gave him so much in return.
Joe truly was the beating heart of the (in it’s widest meaning) socialist claims of the Clash. He not only talked but also walked, lived and breathed his convictions …Whereas – and stepping back from rose tinted glasses – Mick, Paul and Topper haven’t quite lived up to their claims. Being rather self-centred and obsessed in their non-Clash interests and pursuits. Still trying to play rock stars. Still acting like rock stars.
But then – outside of Joe – I can’t think of any other member of the 1970s UK punk scene giving anything back either. Lydonville? Purseyville? Cornwellville? TV Smithville? Idolville?
Nope, as I said. Great to see posts like this. But not so when it’s also a bitter reminder that, in Joe, the only true and genuine light of the 1970s UK punk scene went out, the day he died. But that’s just my opinion – and it may be said that I’m a little biased. Not least as I named my eldest son after Joe – and Joe is one of the only two genuine heroes I’ve ever had in my life …
And he’s a hero because (as stated above) he walked,talked, lived and breathed everything he ever believed in – and gave something back. So, shame on Mick, Paul and Topper. But then again you’ve still got time guys …!
Then a few replies -
Mick needed Joe but not the other way round??? I don’t think The Clash would have offered a third of what they did if Strummer’s songwriting partner wasn’t Jones ~ and I think Joe would have said the same.
And as for Paul being irreplaceable? Debate still rages on in regards to how much he contributed to the Clash’s studio work, from ‘London Calling’ onwards. Although there does seem to be general agreement that it became less and less as time went on. Good looks and an excellent private record collection hardly constitute irreconcilability.
BAD ‘important innovators’? Hardly. Simply a mismash of bands like 1980s Parliament, Funkadelic, Kid Creole & The Coconuts, early American hip-hop artistes and late Clash style tunes. Come on (again) let’s be honest, if Mick hadn’t been in BAD would you REALLY be making such claims? I think it wouldn’t be unfair to say that you wouldn’t be.
But I completely concur with the statement that there will never be a band like The Clash again. Because there will never be a Joe Strummer again ( Rage Against The Machine the only other band I’d ever put in the same category as the Clash – not least after yesterday’s FREE London concert: it was something that Joe would have done without even thinking about it. Because he loved us, the fans from the bottom of his heart and never abandoned us. But how many of us abandoned him?!).
So, sorry, to be brutally honest Mick and Paul lowering themselves to the level of wearing sailor outfits with the AWFUL Gorillaz, breaks my heart. They’ve become horrible caricatures of themselves – and I’ve no doubt that this complicity on their part lies in that old age trait of those who’ve experienced fame: trying to regain their glory years at all costs (just look at Lydon’s recent butter advert. A greater example of becoming a caricature of yourself it would be hard to find).
It’s a tragedy. Not knowing when to let go and accept that you’re ‘last years thing.’ Sadly, something that happened to Mick and Paul the moment the Clash – and Joe – disappeared off the radar (and the main reason I don’t take part in all these ridiculous old school punk festivals or reunions).
As for Topper? Well what can you say about him that he hasnt said about himself a dozen times over since? A great drumming talent destroyed by Heroin addiction. A classic case of pushing that self-destruct button, despite having it all.
Ultimately, I stand by what I’ve said. For a moment in time the Clash ruled both our lifes, and the world. But as quickly as they came, they’d gone – and pages like this are a wonderful reminder of those early, heady, drug & alcohol fuelled, militant days of teenage angst & convictions that we were going to change the world, for ever! Did we? Well, I changed myself and my world – and perhaps that’s the greatest tribute any of us, as fans, can ever make to the Clash’s existence …
Because it was the one thing that Joe especially stressed time after time: don’t live your life’s through us, or expect us to live your life for you. Go out and live your life the way you want to live it … but don’t forget to buy our records and come and see us live at the same time!
My comments aren’t meant to insult other members of the Clash. But Joe was, is and will always be the engine room and heart of the Clash. Simply because he inspired me the most and extolled the same values and dreams that I had, and still do.
I don’t miss seeing the Clash – I miss seeing Joe. As I said one of the only two heroes I’ve ever had in my life (my paternal Zionist, Marxist, Jewish grandfather being the other one) …
And Strummerville remains both a wonderful legacy Joe left behind, and a reminder to all those who pick up a guitar and stand on a stage that it’s not simply about just take, take, take -but in GIVING SOMETHING BACK!!!
The cold and brutal truth in the light of day shows that Mick, Paul and Topper (or Pursey, Lydon et al) haven’t and continue to play the rock star fame game, and play it for every penny and ounce of ‘respectability’ that it offers.
As I said a tragedy – and a heartbreaking memorial to what they both once were.
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Joe was one of a kind, and he was truly meant to be a front man. He has his values and ideals, and shouted them from the rooftops. But reading Chris Salewicz’s book about Joe was one of the best I’ve done, regarding my love for the Clash. I don’t have the book with me right now, so sorry if my recollection is off…but the part of the book that described how Mick and Joe wrote songs together was pretty moving for me. I had the perfect image in my head of Joe sitting at his typewriter, blasting out all the poems, thoughts, and songs that I hear today. The book described how Joe would tear the paper out of the typewriter and Mick would just lay down the tracks right there – I beleive Joe described it as magical.
Joe couldn’t have done what he did in the 70′s without the rest of the Clash. I kept reading, over and over, about this chemistry (that existed especially between Mick and Joe) that he could never really recapture or duplicate. They were all in the right place at the right time. Magical.
And I think the world of Mick and Paul, still doing what they love. If I were to achieve something great, I would hate for the world to think that my time was over and that I could never achieve anything ever again – and to always hold my past against me. True, the Clash will not happen again, but Mick and Paul are still musicians and they deserve to be seen as who they are, not just ‘former members of the Clash.’ To want them to remain as members of the Clash only, is selfish. They have already given me so much, who am I or anyone else to say that they can’t explore other genres, bands, or creative outlets? You can’t go back to 1977. Don’t make them stay there either.
Just my thoughts.
“And sorry Cut the Crap was a brilliant album” – well that says it all! this guy has his head in the clouds on too many issues to really go into but I’ll take on a couple of points as I dont have a massive amount of time – Joe didn’t give us Strummerville – it was set up after he died so really he had sod all to to with it – so you cant differentiate him from the other so called rock stars he mentions. Sure Joe did benefits – pretty much along the lines of projects Mick and Topper support – Haiti single anyone? Jail Guitar Doors?
As for Lydonville – well he does things but is reluctant to do a Bono on us but has said the reason he did the jungle thing was he saw it as a risk but a chance to raise cash for charity which he did – fair play to him. I wouldnt be surprised if all the guys he mentions do bits and bobs but quietly you know.
Slagging Mick/Topper/Paul et all for Rock Star behaviour is a bit rich when he’s advocating the guy who spent his time hanging in the Groucho club / in his nice pad in the country – look Joe was a rock star like the rest of them and like I would be given half a chance – he wasnt a saint, dont romantisize him.
Sorry also to say Big Audio Dynamite p*ssed over most of what Joe produced post Clash until some of the Mescaleros stuff – if anything I think Micks output has been far more in the spirit of what the Clash were about than anything Joe managed. But then I dont really like this kind of discussion – it shouldnt turn into a who was better slanging match – the guys were all different and bought different things to the mix and I think we should be grateful for that and celebrate it and love em for their differences.
The only thing I kind of agree with is regarding the Gorillaz – now I’ve only seen the lineup on tele but while Paul seems to have a valid role to play in the set up from what I’ve seen its a bit of a waste of Micks talents – very much a bit part strumming away so quietly you cant hear him. Still – they’ve gotta pay the bills like the rest of us so fair play – I wont knock that (like I wont knock Lydon’s butter adds) we all gotta live!
And another thing – 2 bass guitars in Havana 3AM – I dont think so. All in all this bloke is very ill informed – reminds me of some people on the Pistols forum who think Sid was the Pistols……
I never know how to respond to these things; I just know that I must. First, let me give a thumbs up to Tim for having the guts to admit that The Good The Bad & The Queen is one his favorite records of the decade…as I am in complete agreement! That album’s a keeper; in fact so much so that I had to replace my disc it got so scratched up. And for me, aside from the fact that I adore Damon Albarn’s voice, I must say that Paul’s bass playing is what does it for me on that record. And yes I’m pretty sure that’s him actually playing.
I couldn’t have been happier when I heard that Paul was involved in this so-called “supergroup.” For me, a lifelong Clash fan, diehard to the core Joe fan and having personally experienced meeting Mick I don’t really see the problem with any of them doing whatever the hell they want with their lives or their music. Why must we put our “cultural icons” through the wringer time after time? Haven’t we learned a lesson from any of the things that are going on around us in the musical world, and the world at large? Are we not being bullies when we try to buttonhole musicians into a certain “genre” or telling them that what they are doing is “silly” or “nonsense”? Would you like it if someone came into your place of work and did the same to you in front your co-workers? Think of the impact of your words. I can’t say for sure that Mick or Paul or anyone else reads this blg, but I’ll bet they get wind of it somehow. Ad it all boils down to one simple fact…they are human beings. They have feelings. Their feelings can get hurt, just like yours.
I would hate to think that we are putting a damper on their spirits after the tragedy of losing a dear frined in Joe, and for Mick “my songwriting partner” — do you expect him to lay down and die just because Joe is no longer with us? As far as rockstar lifestyles go…what in the world do you mean anyway? I’ve been waiting for Carbon/Silicon to come back to the US for two years, and do you know why they haven’t? Because Mick Jones has been involed in one charity project after another…the list is way too long for me to put here, but if you just roll on back through the clash blog I think you’ll find at least a dozen charity gigs that Mick either organized or played at – charity – that means no pay!!! This is a man who most definitely walks the walk. Most definitely. I will not believe anything less of him because I have met him. Johnny Heartbreaker, you’ve broken my heart for sure.
I love Joe as much as (if not more than) you do. In fact, he is my hero, aside from family and friends there is no one that I look up to more. He and the Clash have brought me “from crayons to perfume” so to speak. They have shaped my life. And thankfully because of bands like B.A.D., Carbon/Silicon, TGTB&TQ and Gorillaz I am still reaping the benfits of that tutelage. If you do nothing else, just read the lyrics of these bands. There is very little that is silly or pompous or rockstarrish. They tackle issues. They play music. They bring joy to people like me. And countless others. There is a very simple solution to your problem Johnny, don’t listen to anything that you don’t like. It is certainly interesting and insightful to hear opinions…if it weren;t for that freedom of expression I wouldn’t be a regular patron of this wonderful blog page. But please remember, Johnny, that what you feel about Joe may not be what everyone else feels. And that’s ok with us. But please don’t make us feel bad for the way we feel.
It’s got to be a give and take…just like Joe and Mick’s songwriting. And I’m sorry if I haven’t mentioned Topper…I love him in a very special way. The fact that he hasn’t made (much) music since the Clash doesn’t change that for a minute. I believe Joe once described him as the rock, the glue that held the band together. Joe was a man of many words, but thankfully he chose his words well and they still resonate with truth to this day. And quite honestly, if Mick and Paul are happy playing together, then that is what counts most. Remember, they have had a very tragic loss in Joe, and many of their punk counterparts who have passed away since the Clash’s demise. Kudos to them for not burying their heads in the sand and saying we can’t go on with out Joe. In fact i believe Mick once said, now that Joe is gone we have to pull up our bootstraps and concentrate more on the lyrics to keep his spirit alive. And I believe with all my heart that this inspired him to put his time and energy into Carbon/Silicon who have produced two “keepers” in The Last Post and The Carbon Bubble. They will be needing replacement soon as well. Constant play on my stereo that’s for sure.
And Plastic Beach is a hauntingly beautiful album…have you given it an openminded listen from start to finish? If not, you should. Live video clips are fun, but they don’t paint the whole picture. One final thought…I dig the sailor hats and suits. Paul can carry it off better than anyone, and I love Mick in his suit and sailor hat…quite honestly I think it’s his own personal mark on the whole show. No one can upstage Mick Jones, whether he’s plugged in or not. And that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. I wait with bated breath for Gorillaz to announce a NY show (and Carbon/Silicon are you listening? It would be great to see you again too!) And I miss Joe every single day every single minute, but I am thankful that he left a wealth of treasures behind for us. Not to mention the Mick Jones Rock n Roll Public (FREE) Library. Ok I’ll shut up now. Thanks for letting me vent.
And Tim it’s awesome to be back on the blog! Thank you all the effort and time you put into it…let’s not forget that fellow bloggers! Big ups for Tim and Kimberley!!! Welcome back from facebookland. I love theclashblog and keep passing it onto every Clash fan I meet.
Joannie -
What can I add to that? Thanks for supporting the band through thick and thin…totally agree with Mick’s kindness and sense of giving….
T
Stu,
Thanks for your take on it….I didn’t want to dwell on the Groucho Club, but hoped someone would. Joe was an inspiration but had his faults…like all of us. In the context of 1985-1991 or so I think B.A.D. not only kept the Clash flame alive for me but made music that was vital and innovative. Mick just kept right on working post Clash and went into BAD a little bitter but full of ideas and energy – and it showed
Tim
Cheers Tim, I wasnt in any way trying to blow the Joe myth but it annoys me when people try and deify (probably spelt that wrong!) someone – Joe was a regular bloke and theres nothing wrong with having faults – we all got them – doesnt make us any less special. And Joannie – love your post – couldnt agree more.
same wavelength Stu don’t worry, he had a few faults just like the rest of us (and the rest of the band).
What’s produced by Albarn and his guests for “Gorillaz”, buzzes with the kind of humanity that appeals to people who want to Make Important Music; it’s the logical route for Mick and Paul to get involved in an experimental project where boundaries are wide, creativity trumps image and conceptual risks are taken for the sake of the work. I’m apparently in the minority here, but I think what’s been released under “Gorillaz” has been fascinating and emotionally provocative. Do you know how you can look at two pieces of artwork and even if they’re both expertly made, something can stand-out in one–something you can’t quite put your finger on–that makes it “great” or “important” and somehow more significant than the other? There’s a level of care and personal involvement on the part of the artists and musicians of “Gorillaz”, that adds the right amount of sentiment and conceptual significance to the music and associated imagery. While charming and fun, the “Gorillaz” art representations never totally read as cutesy or typical. The band’s music and art is so laborously made, but never seems contrived or disingenuous and maybe that’s because what’s informed the work, doesn’t resonate from a shallow place. This is the sort of stuff that inspires creative innovation, awakens cultures and re-connects people.
As for the costumes; playful, yes…but there’s also something subtle and almost wistful about the costuming and artwork associated with this particular tour; there’s a kind of gentle melancholy to it all. I think it speaks for their integrity, as real musicians, to be involved in this. They choose not to limit themselves or buy into demands made on them by the critical establishment. A classically “Clash” state of mind.
Lulu
Thanks for your comments…very well stated. You’ve actually opened up a thought I’ve been having but kept to myself ~ the landscape of both music and the industry is so very different now than it was in the mid 70′s, to my way of thinking what Gorillaz achieve is the closest we’ll come to The Clash in 2010. That isn’t to say they rival The Clash, but pay more homage to the originality – inspired from so many directions. I know what I’m trying to say but probably not managing to do so.
As you say, evaluating art is akin to tasting a colour.
Tim
Tim, there is some real hysterical gibberish being written here, so I will try to write some common sense.
To see anybody complaining about Mick and Paul being back onstage together is surprising. To see anybody complaining that they are back together as part of one of the biggest bands on the planet right now is astonishing.
I am 30 years old and have been obsessed with the Clash since around 1999. There was a load of publicity on BBC 2 etc surrounding “from here to eternity” and once I started listening I never stopped.
Given the great strides the Clash took in fusing music, social commentary, fashion and art, in 2010 Gorillaz is an incredibly appropriate act for Mick and Paul to be involved with. It’s a perfect fit.
Regarding Johnny Heartbreaker’s criticism of “silly sailors outfits” – it’s stage clothing, just like the stage clothing Paul produced for the Clash! (Or perhaps Johnny truly believes the Clash wore their stencilled army fatigues down the shops between gigs, in which case I feel sorry for him.)
In summary, Mick and Paul are playing to thousands of people per night on a world tour as part of the world’s foremost art/music project. Somehow I suspect their credibility will survive this terrible burden.
Thanks for your comments John. I was surprised this became much of a debate as I was thrilled to see them sharing the same stage. I thought perhaps my appreciation of Damon Albarn dropped me into the camp of favourable, but some people were strongly against it.
I think, like you, that Gorillaz are closer to a 2010 version of The Clash than many dare to conceive.
Wow…I popped back into tcb after a couple of months, and decided to peek at the comments on this link. It’s certainly an interesting mix of opinions and feelings. I agree wholeheartedly with both Lulu and John D. — anyone who claims Gorillaz to be a “silly” side project/band for a “self-indulgent rock star” has not listened to their music and/or lyrics. And in the meantime, I’ve gotten myself a copy of the dvd “Gorillaz: Demon Days Live from the Manchester Opera House” circa 2006. It has personally brought me more joy in one week than I’ve had in a very very long time. I just keep playing it — in the morning a few songs before work — at night a song or 2 to get me into nightitme gear—on a day off, just to get pumped up and practice my dance moves for Gorillaz at Madison Square Garden– I just can’t stop watching it!!! There is so much going on; so much talent; so much diversity; so much joy on everyone’s faces; so much love in the lyrics; so much huge talent; just a pure musical feast of the senses. Here’s a guy (Damon Albarn) who can orchestrate a show involving 100s of musicians and singers, and keep it rockin’ the whole way through…he sings, he plays piano, he grooves, he leads by example in his music-making and his philosophies. Honestly, anti-Gorillaz bloggers, if you would just take a look at the lyrics, or watch a few songs from that dvd (if I recommended one it would be “Dirty Harry” or “Dare” or perhaps “Deomon Days” or maybe just watch the whole damn thing!!!… ) it’s brilliant and honestly I never thought I would love it the way I do, but it might have something to do wtih the fact that Damon Albarn is a musical genius. I have to say again what you’ve all said before…who in their right mind would not want to do a project like Gorillaz/Plastic Beach/tour? If the energy and love is there…why not do it??? I will repeat what I said beore, Mick and Paul have done so much for US, why not leave them be and let them enjoy what they want to do now??? If you don’t like it—don’t go to the show! But I guarantee that you will miss a show of shows if you miss this one.
Personally, I’m counting the days…xxx
in my humble opinion and that today few “real musicians” are good at doing projects for bands like mick jones, damon alborne who are the Gods of Estudios the exception and maybe Jack White and David Byrne had no other consistency and reliability in design forming
Having only heard bits and pieces (mainly on Youtube), I can’t claim to be an expert on Gorillaz, but what I’ve heard, I’ve liked. The kitschiness of the sailor outfits aside — not that that’s an issue for me, mind you — I’d say that it’s great to see Mick and Paul onstage again, doing something to please themselves first, and letting the chips fall where they may. Isn’t that a reasonable privilege after 30-plus years of action? I think so. It’s not like you have to like every single track that your hero puts out — but, judging by the response that Gorillaz are garnering on tour, it’s fair to say that they’ve already accomplished quite a bit of what they’ve set out to do. It’ll be interesting to see what happens next.
Ch. Ralph,
Thanks for that, I keep coming back to the long odds that previously existed against them sharing a stage also. If they enjoy it – it can’t be a bad thing.
A very interesting debate indeed. I wanna deconstruct Gorillaz for a second: A charismatic, motivated frontman finding collaborators he feels a kinship with. Socially-motivated, reflective, challenging lyrics. Experimental music drawing in traditional guitar rock, contemporary poor British street music and lesser-known global influences. A very self-conscious image, playing the fame game to get where they want to be while also biting the hand that feeds. And brilliant tunes great for playing loud and singing along to!
Yep, all in all Gorillaz are probably the closest thing to The Clash going today.
Very well said…and I’ve contested it with a similar view for a good while now.